[Berdnikov]: Let us begin. The title of this
report is Plasticine Stones
of the Fortress at Sacsayhuaman.
Sacsayhuaman is located in Peru.

It is located near the city
of Cuzco.

From above this fortress
has a saw-like shape.

There was something at the top there
originally which was protected by the Incas.

It is not clear what that was since
there is nothing there now.

But they built this saw-like fortress.

And so, the Ministry of Culture in
Peru was very concerned about the

megalithic masonry where the blocks
were very tighly laid together

that you could not even fit a
sheet of paper in between them.

However, for some reason the wall
started to come apart.

So the Ministry was concerned about
why this was happening and

what could be done to stop
this process.

The first thing which was done
was a scan using geo radar,

the Moscovites helped with this.

The result was this image, where
we can clearly see the zones of fracturing

There were signs of sinking in the
cross-section.

In other words, underneath these
constructions are either karsts
or some kind of cavities.

The prevaling opinion is that these
hollow cavities contained something
which was initially being protected
by this fortress.

In parallel to these investigations, we
also wanted to find out
what kind of stone was used for
the building of this megalithic wall.

Surprisingly, there were never any microsections
analyzed, or any analysis done whatsoever
on the blocks from this wall.

What is interesting about this is
that on first glance it seems to be limestone.

Each stone block varies slightly from the
next, however, on one of them I observed
a flowing shape kind of like this.

On another stone there was a feature
resembling a hand imprint.

The other blocks looked normal.
What was the matter here we wondered?

So, we took some samples and brought
them here to Khabarovsk for analysis.

First of all, we determined that this is limestone.
It successfully dissolves in various acids.

All of these stones dissolve, leaving
practically no remains.

Here we took the sample from the masonry wall.

And another sample was taken from the
quarry where these stones are thought
to have been obtained for the construction
of this wall.

Here are the samples from the quarry.
It is clearly limestone, not much more can be said.

Here is what it looks like under a
microscope.

Any geologist can clearly see that
this is organic limestone.

It is practically all taken up by
organic skeletal fragments.

Here is another sample, also from
the quarry area.

Here we also clearly see these
organisms and around them is
this cement which is neither transparent
nor crystalline in nature.

Just as it should be in any
organic limestone.

We also took samples from the masonry wall.

Here is what we saw under the microscope.

Fine microcrystalline limestone, almost
not even limestone,
but more like marble.

However, marble in most cases is
macro crystalline, with large crystals,
in other words. But here we have very
fine, fine, finely crystalline limestone material.

In some places there are veins running
through it which are then filled in with
larger sized material.

And so, these are the "plasticine stones"
among them here.

See here is the masonry of normal blocks
and in the middle this trough cuts through them.

The trough clearly has these flowing
wavy features on the sides.

So, nature does not do that.

Things like this.

This is what this "plasticine stone" looks
like under the microscope.


This is the clearest example of this
"plasticine stone".

In other words, this is very, very fine
microcrystalline calcite,
calcite-like kind of rock.

[Question from audience]: What kind?

[Answer]: Carbonate. Calcite in general.

Here are the two analysis results,
side by side.

On the left is from the quarry and on
the right is from the wall of those plasticine stones.

Any geologist can see that these
are practically the same material.

There might be slight variations, a bit
more calcium here,
maybe a bit more potassium there.

But overall these values are within
the limits of sensitivity.

So, they are basically the same.

So, the first is the organic limestone,
and the second is the fine crystalline
carbonate-like rock, they are the
same, twins and brothers.

However, in fact these are two
different materials.

So, here we have a question:
What happened here?

The simplest explanation which comes
to mind is:

These Peruvians, quarried this
limestone, then pulverized it
into a fine grained powder, then
roasted it to get quick lime,
and then after mixing it with water,
poured their blocks.

The question is how did they
survive there intact for over
a thousand years.

Conventional lime-based mortar
would not last this long.

So, there were either some technologies
which made them extremely durable,
or maybe there were some kind
of additives or something like that.

Possibly, if we do a more thorough
and finer tuned chemical analysis,
maybe we can find out what
it was.

I mean, this is a very interesting
question!

These huge megaliths, and then also
how they accomplished
the construction itself is
also not clear.

Hypothetically, you take a certain volume,
pour in the mixture.
What you got is what you got.
Then lay a sheet of paper on top,
and pour the next block above it.
And then every joint is practically
noexistent and both blocks are
very tightly fit together,
without the need of to cut or polish
anything, everything is perfectly formed.

This one of the problems, which
unlike the question about the stones
of the Pyramids in Egypt, which are
very theoretical. Talking about aliens

That the extraterrestrials came and
built something. That and the other.

This has little bearing on anything,
yes it's interesting, maybe it's true.

But our question here if we were to
follow up and analyze it further
to find out if and what those additives
were would be very interesting.

And could also have many practical
applications for us.

This slide, we still have to analyze this
but as you can see, this gray mass
on top is the "plasticine stone" and then
below it is the andesite.

So, some kind of an andesite surface
and then on top they molded
whatever they wanted.

The point of my report here is also
to make you think about this issue.

[Question from audience]: Why do you say
plasticine? The blocks in the wall are also carbonate.

[Berdnikov]: No, we say plasticine in the
sense that they were molded in various forms.

I see. In quotes then.

If you have any questions or hypotheses,
please feel free to share them.

[Question]: The deformed blocks which
were observed in the masonry of
the megalithic constructions, are these
the result of the properties of these plasticine stones?

[Berdnikov]: Well, nobody ever analyzed the
properties of these plasticine stones.

All we have is what I have showed
you here.

What is happening underneath the wall
is also being examined right now. Not much is clear.

This is why it is interesting and I am asking you
for your opinion as to how to move forward.

[Question from audience]: I saw that you had
done the chemical analysis but you
but you did not do the energy dispersive
x-ray analysis.

[Answer]: All we have is what I have
presented here now.

[Question]: . . . so it looks like it was done
over a week's time, a short period of time?

[Berdnikov]: And so what would that give us?

[Woman]: Well, perhaps it could tell us
more about the organic remains
in the stones which have them.

[Berdnikov]: Well, maybe the Paleontologists
could determine the age of these stones
but I fail to see what it would accomplish.

[Comment]: Seemingly, the facts presented
here today do not fit into our perception of reality.

They always lead some people to come
up with supernatural origins of these phenomena.

Personally, I think that this material transformation
could occur not only through chemical means
but also according to the
laws of rigid body physics.

Let's take the formation of golden nuggets
in alluvial deposits under the conditions
of permafrost, forming from very
small sized particles into a nugget.

What this means essentially is that the
Debye temperature near the zone is very low.

This allows this metal to be in a
state of plasticity, even under
normal conditions with the temperatures
ranging from below zero to -100° C.

On the atomic level, the bonds in the
crystal lattice will vibrate and gold
will have the ability to stick together.

So, what we observe here in these photos,
makes me think first of all that the
deformation of these blocks occurred
according to the laws of rigid body physics.

The builders of this wall gave the
initial geometric form and then
the blocks fused which created such
monolithic mass that
you could not seemingly even fit
a piece of paper between them.

This was due to the fact that
the blocks grew as a result
of the processes which occur when
particles stick together and grow
to form the aggregates.

Therefore, I think that we should examine
the chemical content which makes up
these limestone blocks and look for
signs of Debye temperature,
and the resulting deformation.

The sticking, growing, enlargement or the volume,
the reduction of volume.
I would like to conclude by saying that
I think we would find the answer
when we examine the material itself.

I think that the transformation occurred
as a result of the processes of rigid body physics.

[Berdnikov]: Thank you.

Could you please show the slide
with the megalithic wall?

[Berdnikov]: Will this do?

Yes.

If we are talking about pouring then
there should at least be one horizontal surface
on top of these blocks.

This masonry was not poured. These blocks
were laid by fitting and adjusting.

There are similar walls in the Caucasus
and other places, where people took
stones and without any preparation
constructed walls with a binding mortar.

Tell me, what kind of pouring could be
the result of what it seen in this area here?

This is all natural limestone laid using
a conventional method.

[Comment]: In this case we have to focus our
attention on the issue that these asphalt-like features
are most likely the result of a
solidification of a liquid solution.

A lime based solution.

If you take magnesium solutions . . .
How are they made?

First you roast magnesite in the presence
of charcoal to produce MgO,
or magnesium oxide and then mixed
with water, it then forms bonds
which are similar to a solution of
hydrous magnesium chloride or bischofite,
and as it forms this solution, it quickly
solidifies and no new elements appear there.

In other words, in terms of composition
it again becomes magnesite.

Analogously, it would seem that the story is
the same with a lime based solution.

Actually, if a wall is made of a
lime based plaster, then over time
it turns into limestone plaster.

This is because the CO2 from the air
bonds with it gradually over time
and it slowly turns into limestone.

But in this case it looks as if the
transition to limestone was very rapid.

And this rapid transition could be
due to some kind of a special mixing additive.

And using this special mixing additive
would make this kind of a fine microcrystalline body.

Maybe the builders posessed this or
it could be that there were certain conditions
in Peru, maybe a condition of low water
saturation.

Maybe there was a certain temperature regime
which allowed this to take place.

I think we have to take our analysis
into that direction.

[Berdnikov]: I have a few words to add to this.

[Berdnikov]: Firstly, we have to continue conducting
our chemical analysis,
secondly, examine the physical and mechanical
properties of these creations.

That is one thing. The second and probably
more important is the geology.

In other words, a good geologist must be
sent to Peru, who would walk around
take samples and see for himself, make
some microsections for analysis
and then most likely this dilemma would
be resolved.

Thank you. I think collectively we
learned a lot here today and moved forward.

Tea and coffee is over there.
We will continue our discussion.